1 1 2 HOUSTON-GALVESTON AREA COUNCIL 3 Public Meeting and Comment Period 4 for On-Road/Off-Road Mobile Source Control Strategies 5 for the Eight-Hour Ozone State Implementation Plan 6 7 8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 9 * * * * * * * * * * * * * 10 11 December 8, 2008 12 13 Houston-Galveston Area Council 14 3555 Timmons Lane Houston, Texas 77027 15 2nd Floor Conference Room A 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 1 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: My name is Shelley 2 Whitworth and I'm the Air Quality Project Manager at the 3 Houston-Galveston Area Council, and this meeting tonight 4 is very informal. And we'll actually have another 5 public meeting probably in early January, but plus Chris 6 Lindhjem, with ENVIRON, our consultant was in town to 7 meet with one of our stakeholder groups today; and while 8 we had him here, we wanted to have him -- take advantage 9 of him being here so that we could go over the control 10 strategy. And he'll kind of do a cursory overview, and 11 then we wanted to give any of you an opportunity, if you 12 have any questions about the analysis or the 13 recommendations, to be able to ask him to explain to you 14 because I know if you looked online at the report, it's 15 a very lengthy report and we thought this would kind of 16 give some of you a heads up on some things you might 17 want to be looking at. 18 Did all of you sign in for the public 19 meeting? If you haven't, we'd really like for you to. 20 And again, let me start, too, and say that 21 what we're charged with or tasked with under our 22 contract with TCEQ is coming up with control strategies 23 for the mobile category, both on-road and off-road. 24 And Chris is going to go over that. And 25 actually, he's got a couple of pie charts which came 3 1 from TCEQ on how the inventory changes from 2005 to 2 2018, which is our attainment date, and we'll kind of 3 walk you through that process. 4 And Chris, I'm just going to let you take 5 over (inaudible). 6 MR. LINDHJEM: Okay. 7 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: And again, if y'all 8 have any questions, feel free just to raise your hands 9 and ask, because there's not so many here that we can't 10 just stop and kind of do an interactive process. 11 (Inaudible.) 12 MR. LINDHJEM: No, it's all right. I'll 13 just speak from here because it seems pretty informal. 14 Okay. So what we were tasked with was 15 looking at 2018, which is the new attainment date for 16 the 8-hour Ozone SIP, was to get the HGB area in 17 attainment by that period for -- for the standard. 18 You know, the initial scope was developed 19 by TCEQ and we -- with TCEQ, we collaborate with public, 20 you know, individual industries, and -- and other 21 stakeholder groups. The idea here is to develop a list 22 or a menu of potential control strategies. 23 We started with the list that we developed 24 in 2006 for the 2009 Ozone SIP attainment plan and added 25 a few bits here and there and modified things in 4 1 accordance with projecting forward or forecasting 2 forward to 2018. 3 The idea behind this control strategy is a 4 little different than if you were here two and a half 5 years ago. In this case, we're only looking at 6 voluntary measures and we're looking at measures that 7 can be locally implemented. We didn't really discuss 8 potential regulations or rule makings. TCEQ wished to 9 keep that within their purview. So the TCEQ will look 10 at any rule makings or any other -- any other kind of 11 laws that would have to be implemented. So we're not 12 looking at laws. We're looking at voluntary control 13 measures. 14 Just to give an overview of what's going on 15 here. VOC and NOx emissions both interact to form ozone 16 or increase the ozone, ambient ozone areas. We look at 17 VOC's and we look at NOx and in some -- both have 18 benefits. By and large, NOx control has a bigger 19 benefit, but here we see the VOC emissions pie charts, 20 which is essentially the fraction of emissions by 21 different control area. And the -- let's see if I can 22 find my little -- yeah. 23 So we can see in the 2005 baseline, there 24 were a fair bit of mobile sources. And again, we're 25 only looking at mobile sources in this discussion 5 1 tonight for on-road and non-road sources. And those are 2 actually decreasing even as a fraction of the total. 3 So the pie itself is roughly the same, but 4 the percentage of VOC's from -- VOC emissions from 5 on-road and non-road sources are going down and that's 6 due to the new regulations and fleet turnovers. 7 Okay. NOx emissions is a bigger -- bigger 8 interest for this area in terms of the ozone attainment, 9 and it's the No. 1 thing people look at. And in here 10 we're seeing that the NOx emissions are going down quite 11 a bit, 600 tons per day to 364. But even in addition to 12 the NOx going down, we see that the on-road sources went 13 from 37 percent of the total to only 14 percent of the 14 total now. So not only are overall NOx emissions going 15 down, but even the proportion of on-road NOx is going 16 down even more so. 17 Non-road sources are going down, but 18 they're a little bit bigger piece of the pie than -- 19 than they were in 2005 of the leftover pie in terms of 20 emissions. This is due to a few segments in the 21 inventory that are actually increasing quite a bit. 22 For on-road emissions, we've got -- 23 remember, VOC's are a small fraction, but if you're 24 going to go for VOC emissions, you go to the light-duty 25 vehicle fraction. And then for NOx emissions, you can 6 1 go for any kinds of fractions, both heavy duty and light 2 duty. Light duty has got a little bit more piece of the 3 pie than heavy duty, but there's fewer vehicles causing 4 that piece of the pie of the heavy-duty fraction. 5 For off-road, again, off-road VOC's are 6 very low, but if you're going to target two categories 7 for VOC reduction, it would be the recreational marine 8 and the lawn and garden equipment, the ones that are 9 cross-hatched in the presentation here. 10 DANA BLUME: Chris, can I just say 11 something here? 12 MR. LINDHJEM: Sure. 13 DANA BLUME: The recreational marine, you 14 mean like fishing boats or would that be considered 15 partially -- you mean like my husband's fishing boat? 16 MR. LINDHJEM: Yes, any -- any individual 17 that registers their vessel with the State of Texas 18 under a recreational license, not a commercial license. 19 DANA BLUME: Okay. 20 MR. LINDHJEM: Would be considered 21 recreational marine. 22 But -- and those are the -- you know, the 23 biggest sources among those are the two-stroke 24 outboards, you know, because they're -- they blow a lot 25 of VOC's. But, again, remember, you got to keep in mind 7 1 that VOC part of the pie for off-road is very small or 2 non-road is very small. So even though it's a big part 3 of a small pie, I guess you could call it a big fish in 4 a small pond, anyway... 5 For the NOx inventory, which, again, is a 6 bigger fraction of the total, you'll see in this 7 presentation if you look at it in depth, I have 128 tons 8 per day. And the earlier slide had -- had something 9 like 116. There's some issue with how much credit was 10 given to the TERP program and TxLED in the future year 11 that wasn't quite resolved in time for this 12 presentation. 13 So the big pieces of the pie here, if I can 14 find my little -- here it is. Yellow here is for the 15 construction and mining equipment. There's another 16 little yellow in the thing, but it's underground mining, 17 and that actually is zero around here because you can't 18 really dig too far underneath without hitting water. 19 So the yellow here is for the color of most 20 construction equipment and that's why I colored it 21 yellow. So that's a big piece of the NOx pie for 22 off-road, is the construction and mining. 23 And then the red stuff over here are the 24 big, large ocean-going vessels that, Dana, you'd be 25 interested in. And of that, it's split into two. One 8 1 is the transit, which is the -- the lines, the 2 cross-hatch. And the solid is the dwelling emissions, 3 which are the ones when they're at berth, or parked, 4 essentially. And so you got to keep that in mind for 5 later when we talk about this. 6 And then the solid dark royal blue there, 7 those are the harbor craft. That's -- that's everything 8 that's not the large vessel, deep-draft vessels that 9 isn't recreational. So that could include everything. 10 But by and large, the biggest piece is the 11 tugs of all sorts. It's barge tugs. It's -- it's just 12 tugs. It's a -- mostly tugs. There's a few other 13 categories that are not well documented, but they're 14 probably fairly small pieces of the pie. 15 Then the orange here both in solid and in 16 cross-hatch are the locomotives. And the solid orange 17 piece of the pie is of interest because that's the 18 switching engines, and those are the ones that are 19 locally based. And this is another case where that 20 piece of the pie may be overestimated in this 21 presentation because it doesn't include TERP and it 22 probably doesn't include TERP and it probably doesn't 23 include TxLED. But I couldn't be sure, so I didn't want 24 to apply it and so that's why I just left it the way it 25 is. 9 1 Okay. So what we started with was a master 2 list of control measures, and this is essentially a 3 kitchen sink sort of approach where everybody came up 4 with their idea and we collected them and parsed them 5 out and tried to organize them by like segments and 6 things like that. And we did that for the 2006 study. 7 That was done for 2009 attainment. 8 So we started with that list from 2006 and 9 then we solicited other suggestions from a number of 10 stakeholders, but TCEQ and HGC's (ph) primarily, and 11 then other suggestions. And then -- and then we 12 reviewed it. I reviewed the list and collected them 13 into a total master list that was published several 14 months ago. 15 And then -- then we took that master list 16 and we went through, and in the first phase we were 17 trying to find anything that had any potential benefit 18 that could be claimed under the State Implementation 19 Plan, the SIP, and -- and looked at those in more depth. 20 So we're looking at anything that might have a 21 quantifiable benefit. 22 And then the Phase 2 part, which we just 23 completed last week -- was it last week? It seems so 24 long ago. But yeah, just last week and published, is 25 a -- is a detailed evaluation of each measure. And when 10 1 we say "detailed," we spend, you know, a half day to a 2 day of real work time collecting references and 3 information and other programs that have been 4 implemented and look at what -- you know, what they 5 cost, how feasible it is, what's the -- what's the 6 potential benefit for this area. 7 So when we looked at what was -- had any 8 benefit at all, we used the primary of these four 9 criteria the EPA have developed for inclusion in the 10 SIP. And by "permanent," they mean something that you 11 can be sure is going to happen. It isn't something that 12 will be here today, gone tomorrow. You know, like oh, 13 well, you know, I don't know. I have a holiday on July 14 4th or something like that and it will disappear the 15 next day or something like that. But something that 16 will actually be, you know, a measure that can be 17 implemented and be sure of. 18 Quantifiable just means you can measure it. 19 You can measure the benefit that you've got. 20 Enforceable is some mechanism or some 21 administration that could be applied to the measure that 22 will actually get it -- you know, you can actually -- 23 somebody's responsible for the program. Somebody will 24 collect all the information necessary or provide the 25 incentives in order to do it. 11 1 And then surplus is just you have to make 2 sure you're not double counting the benefit of this 3 program with something that would already normally occur 4 with -- over the course of -- like fleet turnover, you 5 know. Somebody is going to replace their truck anyway, 6 so you don't count that. 7 We ended up with 26 on-road measures, eight 8 off-road measures. And you can look at those in our 9 report. They're -- the detailed evaluations are in an 10 appendix and we have a summary table that I can -- we 11 can talk about a little bit later. 12 Okay. For the short list of measures for 13 on-road controls, I picked out four that showed up as 14 the biggest hitters. One is looking at an extension of 15 the current clean vehicles or the TERP program or 16 together. It's been a retrofit replacement program for 17 truck engines. You can either replace the whole truck. 18 You can replace just the engine. You can retrofit the 19 engine on the existing truck. It's been a pretty 20 successful program to get us where we are today, which 21 is actually pretty close to attainment, from what I 22 hear. 23 And then there's the fuel pricing measures. 24 We've seen a run-up in price does have an effect on 25 people's driving. So the low -- the more you can reduce 12 1 VMT and the more you can reduce emissions. 2 Yeah, No. 1 would be to institute a tax. 3 That's probably not a -- that's not your No. 1 thing you 4 would think of. But one measure that could have some 5 benefit is to try to put your insurance as a 6 mileage-based insurance and have an increment on your 7 insurance that -- you know, so you can see every mile 8 you drive is an extra five -- five cents cha-ching on 9 your -- on your insurance costs. So that's one way. 10 The other way is mileage-based 11 registration, but there's a lot less money in 12 registration, so there's a lot less benefit associated 13 with it. 14 No. 3, I collected a whole bunch of 15 commuting options and there's a whole bunch out there. 16 We listed them out this afternoon and I just wanted to 17 put that out. I have van pool programs, which is, you 18 know, a collection of people commuting in by van instead 19 of by their individual vehicle. 20 Parking cash-out. This is one where 21 your -- your cost of parking at your place of business 22 is an increment to your yearly payout. Now, this could 23 be sort of a zero sum where the company already 24 subsidizes your pay and they may just give you a certain 25 amount of money, but then you can choose to either buy 13 1 parking or not commute with that parking and you get to 2 keep the money. 3 We talked about insurance, mileage-based 4 insurance programs. 5 Compressed workweek is a way companies can 6 reduce the amount of commuting. 7 Other kinds of ride sharing, which is all 8 sorts of things, like matching -- computer matching of 9 car pools. Tele- -- telecommuting, any number of other 10 measures and like that. 11 So all those kind of measures sort of get 12 collected under the alternative commuting options. 13 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Bicycle pedestrian. 14 MR. LINDHJEM: Bicycle pedestrian, transit 15 options, all sorts of other things figure in there. 16 Walk to work. 17 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Okay. 18 MR. LINDHJEM: Scooter, those -- anyway, 19 there's -- there's all sorts of other options you can 20 do. 21 The last one is -- was inspection and 22 maintenance for the three counties that don't currently 23 have it. You have to think about in terms of air 24 quality. The air quality is worst in the center of the 25 city, so these outlining counties, even though they get 14 1 some tonnage reduction with -- within the inspection and 2 maintenance, may not affect where the air is the worst. 3 So you have to think about that. 4 Secondly, for those counties -- and we're 5 looking at 2 -- 2018, we may only look at instead of 6 installing dynamometers where the car is (inaudible) 7 and they measure emissions and that's very expensive. 8 It's just to have somebody check your lights, your 9 engine codes, which is just called onboard diagnostics. 10 That's a cheap way of determining if the people are 11 complying with their inspection. So that -- that's one 12 way to do it. 13 So you know, if it's just a numbers game on 14 terms of tonnage reduction, that's one thing. If it's a 15 reduction of the air quality in the center city, 16 that's -- that's another thing entirely. And you'd have 17 to consider that -- you know, where the emissions are 18 occurring, not just how much is -- emission reduction is 19 gained by the measure. 20 And sort of prefaces some of the other 21 ones. 22 On the off-road side, the biggest hitters 23 are these TERP-style replacement programs where they're 24 paying to reduce emissions by replacing older engines 25 with newer ones. With off-road, the biggest ones are 15 1 construction and mining equipment and forklifts are 2 being retrofitted under the TERP program. 3 Under the marine engine, we're talking 4 mostly this harbor craft segment that -- remember that 5 bright blue piece of the pie. That -- engine 6 replacement programs have been widely used under the 7 marine TERP -- the TERP marine replacement program. 8 And then locomotives. And this is 9 especially those switching engines. A large portion of 10 them have been replaced in this area. In fact, 11 something over 50 percent of the switching engines have 12 been replaced under the TERP program. 13 DANA BLUME: Chris, can I ask a question? 14 MR. LINDHJEM: Sure. 15 DANA BLUME: So how does the MPA, marine 16 and locomotive engine, come into play with this -- 17 MR. LINDHJEM: The -- 18 DANA BLUME: (Inaudible) volunteering 19 measures and that's a -- 20 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah. 21 DANA BLUME: -- mandated -- I mean, what 22 would you do? Kind of advanced replacement program? 23 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah. You know, the problem 24 is 2018 is not a really good year for that. But let me 25 just show you something. Are you interested mostly in 16 1 marine? 2 DANA BLUME: Well (inaudible) switch 3 engines, too, yes. 4 MR. LINDHJEM: Well, I'll talk about the 5 marine because that's the -- that's a little interest -- 6 locomotives aren't that different, so -- so let me just 7 go with the marine engine for a second. 8 So I have all these measures, and they're 9 all part of the appendix of the report. 10 DANA BLUME: Okay. 11 MR. LINDHJEM: So I encourage you to read 12 that. Oops, that's the wrong appendix. So don't look 13 at the screen, you'll get vertigo, while I do this. 14 Here we go. Okay. Marine. 15 The key here is to look at when -- when the 16 standards come into play and when -- when you can 17 reasonably replace the engines. 18 DANA BLUME: Right. 19 MR. LINDHJEM: You see that the Tier 4 20 engines are when we get our big reduction, and that's 21 for these selective catalytic reductions. 22 Unfortunately, they don't show up until 2016, 2017, 23 maybe. You know, EPA -- that's in the EPA rule, so to 24 get that -- get the replacements going in time for 2018 25 attainment becomes really difficult. 17 1 DANA BLUME: I mean, anyone who replaces 2 their engine right now (inaudible) most likely won't 3 want to replace again. 4 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. Well, that's -- you 5 know, we didn't get into that. But yeah, that's a -- 6 that is a nuance. 7 The idea is that if we replace the engines 8 now, they're not going to want to replace them again and 9 so we may be somewhat undercutting ourselves by 10 replacing things now. But that's -- that's a tricky 11 calculation to try to make. 12 DANA BLUME: Okay. 13 MR. LINDHJEM: Under the -- under the 14 thing, most of the TERP -- hang on for a second. Let me 15 just look (inaudible). I'm just trying to figure out 16 what the lifetime was for the marine engines replacement 17 programs under TERP. They're -- they're supposed to 18 last -- you know what? I'm going to go back to this. 19 I'm sorry about that. 20 DANA BLUME: Yeah. 21 MR. LINDHJEM: Sorry about that. I can 22 have... 23 (Inaudible talking in the audience.) 24 MR. LINDHJEM: Okay. So the project life 25 of the marine programs is, you know, with nine years, 18 1 seven years, there's one for three. So this -- this 2 column right here that I'm paging up and down on is the 3 project life. 4 So the longest one in the TERP program is 5 10 years. So when they replace the thing in 2008, the 6 project is ending by 2018. 7 DANA BLUME: Right. 8 MR. LINDHJEM: So you can't really count 9 the benefits too much -- or maybe you can count that 10 one, but the other -- the other ones that are less than 11 10 years will be gone by the time you get to 2018. So 12 it does figure into the calculation. I don't know if 13 you can see all that. 14 DANA BLUME: Is that part of the appendix 15 at all, these tables or -- 16 MR. LINDHJEM: I talk about it in the -- I 17 talk about the project life in the descriptions of each 18 of the measures, so if you want to -- if you get into 19 the measure and look at project life, you can look at 20 that. But so -- so that's the deal is... 21 And then as we project forward, these 22 baseline uncontrolled engines are disappearing from the 23 fleet, so you're going to be looking at replacing Tier 1 24 engines with Tier 3 engines, so that's -- that's going 25 to be probably your primary thing you're going to be 19 1 looking at in the -- for this -- this thing. So you 2 want to wait until, you know, these Tier 3 engines are 3 out in 2012, 2013 before you start replacing. 4 So as we move forward, we have to look at 5 these -- these new standards and when they come in for 6 when you want to -- how you want to structure the next 7 version of TERP, whatever that is, right? 8 DANA BLUME: Okay. 9 MR. LINDHJEM: So you'd want to get your 10 biggest benefit after the standards come in. 11 DANA BLUME: Right. Okay. 12 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Is there any way to get a 13 manufacturer either as a pilot program or early to bring 14 out a Tier 4 engine, if they know that there is a -- 15 DANA BLUME: Well (inaudible) a demand 16 (inaudible). 17 MR. LINDHJEM: There's -- there's a lot of 18 discussion about doing that. 19 DANA BLUME: Right. 20 MR. LINDHJEM: The problem is it's pretty 21 early to be talking about that. Until the Tier 3's are 22 out, you don't -- they don't really want to talk about 23 retrofitting a new device on top of a Tier 3 until they 24 know what they're looking at because -- the primary 25 issue for -- the difference between Tier 3 and Tier 4 20 1 are these marine engines, temperature. You've got to 2 have the temperature in the after-treatment catalyst to 3 get the control. So until they have the engine and know 4 what the temperatures are, they're not sure that 5 technology would work. So yes -- 6 BRANDT MANNCHEN: You need an earlier Tier 7 3 then to look at -- 8 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. 9 DANA BLUME: (Inaudible) Tier 3 -- 10 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Operational -- 11 MR. LINDHJEM: Well, yeah, there's -- 12 DANA BLUME: (Inaudible) temperature then 13 to know what kind of retrofit device you can put onto to 14 make (inaudible). 15 (Inaudible talking in the audience.) 16 MR. LINDHJEM: Okay. I have a presentation 17 by sort of a fellow consultant that does -- does this 18 kind of thing where he actually installs SCR devices 19 on -- on -- well, locomotives and harbor crafts. 20 So yeah, people are sniffing around this. 21 It's not really a sure -- because we're going to be 22 starting to see SCR -- SCR stands for Selective 23 Catalytic Reduction. It's a way to reduce NOx emissions 24 from diesel engines. We're going to be starting to see 25 those for the 2010 trucks. So in 2010, we're going to 21 1 see these kinds of trucks out there. It says 2007, but 2 really, you're not going to see them until 2010. 3 DANA BLUME: Well, and SCR is very 4 temperature sensitive. 5 MR. LINDHJEM: Sorry? 6 DANA BLUME: SCR is a very sensitive -- or 7 temperature sensitive technology. 8 MR. LINDHJEM: Very temperature sensitive. 9 DANA BLUME: Until you have the right 10 engine and the right load or something to figure out 11 when it's going to inject. 12 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Well, I've been seeing, 13 too, some articles not referring to mobile sources, but 14 saying that they may have some burners now -- 15 DANA BLUME: Oh, okay. 16 BRANDT MANNCHEN: -- that get you up near 17 85, 90 percent, close to SCR levels. 18 MR. LINDHJEM: Some what? 19 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Burners. 20 MR. LINDHJEM: Burners? 21 BRANDT MANNCHEN: For -- you know, 22 stationary sources. 23 MR. LINDHJEM: Oh, okay. 24 BRANDT MANNCHEN: So I'm just 25 wondering if -- 22 1 DANA BLUME: That load stays pretty 2 constant. 3 BRANDT MANNCHEN: If that technology can 4 also come on this sort of thing. I don't know. 5 MR. LINDHJEM: So anyway -- I didn't want 6 to -- 7 DANA BLUME: Sorry, everybody, who doesn't 8 care about (inaudible), a marine or a locomotive. 9 MR. LINDHJEM: Okay. But the same is true 10 with switcher engines. The switcher engines that we're 11 seeing now under the TERP program are these "gen set" 12 switchers where they use an off-road engine, a generator 13 off -- off-road engine in a locomotive, so that -- 14 that's a little bit ahead in terms of the implementation 15 of these new lower emission engines into the locomotive 16 fleet. There's some other reasons why that works pretty 17 well for locomotives. 18 But once the off-road engines come in, then 19 you can maybe start to see some ability for the off -- 20 the marine and locomotive switcher engine locomotives. 21 And the off-road engines are supposed to have their 22 SCR's a little bit earlier than locomotive and marine, 23 so at that point you'll be able to see more if you can 24 retrofit these SCR devices on. 25 Okay. I just made a couple of notes here 23 1 under locomotives. We had a -- we actually had our 2 stakeholder discussion with the locomotive section based 3 on this report. The biggest hitter that we found was 4 the ownership of the locomotives. Some of the firms 5 were leasing their locomotives, so they didn't have 6 control over them and, therefore, they couldn't replace 7 them under TERP program. And that actually is a pretty 8 big fraction of the remaining switcher engines that 9 haven't been retrofitted or replaced yet. 10 DANA BLUME: (Inaudible) is there like one 11 or two major leasing outfits? 12 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: They were -- I was 13 asking the other day at the railroad stakeholder 14 meeting -- and I think they were (inaudible) four or 15 five different companies that were leasing. I thought 16 that we would try, but it sounded like they moved those 17 things around, so I don't know (inaudible). 18 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. 19 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: It would be good if we 20 could get them. 21 MR. LINDHJEM: And then the other -- the 22 other half of the remaining engines that haven't been 23 done are these onesies and twosies. You know, there's 24 like some company called Farmland that owns three 25 switcher engines at a terminal and individual industries 24 1 have a switcher engine here or there and so it's very 2 difficult for them to get excited about applying the 3 TERP when it's only one engine. They could care less. 4 So you know, that's where I put a little 5 note here under Ownership. 6 And then the next biggest things were with 7 the large ocean-going vessels, which I'm sure you're 8 happy to see on the list here. 9 DANA BLUME: This is the (inaudible). 10 MR. LINDHJEM: Huh? 11 DANA BLUME: This is the (inaudible). 12 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah, yeah. That's right. 13 That's right. And I put these in somewhat of an order 14 that makes sense. The berthing emissions are the 15 biggest potential control measure. This is something 16 that California is doing in earnest under rule makings. 17 They're being very aggressive about it. By 2020, I 18 don't know, 60, 80 percent of the vessel calls are 19 supposed to be shoreside power. There's some issues 20 with that which, if you want to, we can get into, but 21 one of the issues is I didn't really count berthing 22 emissions for tankers primarily because a lot of them 23 use steam-driven pumps and, therefore, use the boilers 24 and not an engine and, therefore, it's hard to plug them 25 in. So I did not include tankers in that total, the 25 1 potential total there. It only includes things other 2 than tankers. So I did consider some of that. 3 But this potential here is based on 4 nontankers in a California-style implementation, which 5 is pretty aggressive. 6 So when I put "potential" here, I mean 7 potential, not realistic, not feasible, not something 8 people would necessarily do voluntarily, but an overall 9 potential. 10 For engine and actually fuel controls, 11 engine controls would be something that the vessel 12 themselves would turn on when they came -- as they came 13 into a sensitive area. Same thing with the fuels. They 14 could use low sulfur better fuels in either the 15 auxiliary or -- and/or their propulsion engines. And 16 those can have some NOx benefits, even though their 17 primary benefit is particulate emissions. And that's 18 why California's doing it. They have a rule for fuels. 19 They don't have a rule for engine controls, but they 20 have a rule for fuels. 21 But I grouped those two together because 22 EPA is currently petitioning under "indervid" -- 23 under -- well, or will petition in 2009 under an 24 international treaty to have an emission control area 25 designation for the United States. 26 1 DANA BLUME: Okay. Oh, well -- 2 MR. LINDHJEM: Canada will do their own. 3 Canada will do their own. U.S. can't petition for 4 Canada. They -- they're going to go maybe together, you 5 know. They'll put their petitions one on top of 6 another, so Canada and United States will both do it. 7 So they're petitioning. And under that 8 emission control area designation, if you get both clean 9 fuels and engine controls under the -- under the 10 proposed plan by the IMO, which is French for 11 International Marine Organization. 12 So that may happen under a federal 13 guidance, international guidance -- international 14 guidance anyway, so it may not be something the port has 15 to do or locally implement. 16 Speed reduction, I have to put it in there 17 because California is doing it. The speed reduction 18 program, though, however, the benefits are going to be 19 experienced well outside of the Houston-Galveston area 20 off the coast quite a ways. And actually, I could show 21 you a picture if you can bear with me a second. 22 I don't know. I just love this picture. 23 That's why I keep showing it over and over again. Oops. 24 Where is it? Oh, there it is. There we go. 25 So you can see there that the -- these are 27 1 the shipping lanes in the area and you can see that 2 the -- oh, I can't even reach that high. Here, I'll go 3 to the front of the room. 4 Well, anyway, the ships already slow down 5 right near where that -- that dot is for Galveston up 6 here. So essentially the sea buoy where the pilots take 7 over the ship is right outside of Galveston, so they're 8 slowing down within that area. And then outside of that 9 area, there's no speed restrictions so you can end up 10 with fairly high speeds for some container vessels. 11 Their top speed is something like 25 knots. Same thing 12 with cruise vessels, not that they necessarily go that 13 fast, but they could. 14 DANA BLUME: But keep in mind, you know, a 15 ship condition just right when it gets to the buoy, just 16 slow down to 1 or 2 knots -- 17 MR. LINDHJEM: Well, no, no, no. Yeah. 18 Actually, within the buoy, they run at 12 knots and they 19 have to run it. They've insisted that they have to run 20 it at 12 knots and no less. 21 But what we're talking about is outside of 22 that area where they already run 12 knots. And if you 23 go from 25 to 12 knots, you -- 24 DANA BLUME: That's big. 25 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah, you can maybe half or 28 1 one-quarter your emissions for that length of run. 2 DANA BLUME: And that's what California 3 did. 4 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. 5 DANA BLUME: Because they could come into 6 their harbor going that fast basically (inaudible). 7 MR. LINDHJEM: Plus -- plus their routes -- 8 their routes were quite along the coast, were quite a 9 bit along the coast. 10 In this case, you can see that the routes 11 are fairly much straight out of the coast, so it may 12 have less effect on the urban air quality than you 13 might -- might think based on the tonnage. So you have 14 to think about that when you want to require that they 15 slow down. Yes? 16 BRANDT MANNCHEN: (Inaudible) goes and 17 comes back in. 18 DANA BLUME: How would we figure that out? 19 MR. LINDHJEM: My ears are a little 20 clogged. What was that? 21 BRANDT MANNCHEN: The sea breeze, how far 22 out it goes out -- 23 MR. LINDHJEM: Well, yeah. Plus, you think 24 about it as a search light. You know, those emissions, 25 you know, do they -- boom, they hit the monitor like 29 1 this, but they could be over there and hit Beaumont that 2 way or whatever. 3 DANA BLUME: So how would you figure out 4 how far out it would be feasible to do a 5 speed (inaudible)? Would you just need to model it 6 or -- 7 MR. LINDHJEM: Right now the ports of LA, 8 Long Beach and San Diego are looking at 20 nautical 9 miles out from their port. The ARB proposed rule making 10 is 40 nautical miles. 11 DANA BLUME: And how did they come up with 12 40? I mean, are they -- yeah. 13 MR. LINDHJEM: She was next. 14 MELANIE OLDHAM: I'm from Brazoria County. 15 I live 20 miles from Freeport, Texas, the Port of 16 Freeport. 17 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. 18 MELANIE OLDHAM: You're -- I don't 19 understand. You're saying if you -- if one of the 20 control measures would be to require these ships or 21 craft to slow down from 25 knots to 12 knots, it could 22 reduce NOx. 23 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah. 24 MELANIE OLDHAM: Because the -- that 25 dark -- that comes right towards Galveston and my area 30 1 in Freeport. 2 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. 3 MELANIE OLDHAM: We have high NOx and high 4 ozone problems in my area. 5 MR. LINDHJEM: You know, to analyze how 6 much reduction you get, 25 knots is something only 7 container vessels and cruise ships can attain. Tankers, 8 16 -- 16 knots maybe, so they don't really -- they 9 don't -- you can't reduce them very much. So you have 10 to -- 11 MELANIE OLDHAM: It would make a 12 significant difference. I think it would be worth. 13 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah, for -- 14 MELANIE OLDHAM: You know back in '04 and 15 '06, the discussion about decreasing the speed of cars, 16 automobiles -- 17 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah. 18 MELANIE OLDHAM: (Inaudible) discussion 19 that I thought it was worth it. Some folks didn't 20 (inaudible) -- 21 MR. LINDHJEM: There's also stuff -- you 22 see there's a line that goes along the coast, too, for a 23 ways as well, and I'm not sure what that is, but that's 24 what we -- 25 MELANIE OLDHAM: I think that's a good 31 1 control measure to take a look at, slowing down the 2 speed, because it could make a significant difference 3 because we have terrible (inaudible) -- 4 MR. LINDHJEM: Again, if we go back -- if 5 we go back to the overhead, you can get bigger 6 reductions from berthing emissions and -- 7 MELANIE OLDHAM: You're talking about the 8 idling and (inaudible). 9 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah, at berth. 10 MELANIE OLDHAM: (Inaudible) be able to 11 retrofit their engines (inaudible). 12 MR. LINDHJEM: Well, not just retrofit -- 13 MELANIE OLDHAM: (Inaudible). 14 MR. LINDHJEM: There's -- for berthing 15 emissions, there's three ways of doing it: You can have 16 them plug into the grid, you know, and if they're 17 electric power generated by -- by plants that are 18 already controlled. There's clean engines that you can 19 run on a dock or on a barge that would lower the 20 emissions. And then the third one, there's a sock on a 21 stick. That's -- that's the term somebody uses. A sock 22 on a stick, but it's this baggie -- this octagon-shaped 23 baggie that they put over the "hoo" -- over the exhaust 24 port and then route it through a scrubber and an SCR 25 system. 32 1 MELANIE OLDHAM: And we have a lot of 2 dredging that goes on in our area, too. We've got a lot 3 of NOx. Like they're getting ready to widen and deepen 4 the Port of Freeport. Is this -- is that included, the 5 dredging vessels, or just -- or is it -- you're talking 6 large ships? 7 MR. LINDHJEM: No, it is included. It's 8 just -- you know, it's really hard to -- you know, by 9 2018, it won't be there anymore. 10 DANA BLUME: But your dredging vessels 11 should have been under harbor craft, not (inaudible). 12 MR. LINDHJEM: It would be under harbor 13 craft. 14 DANA BLUME: It would be under (inaudible). 15 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah, it would be under 16 harbor craft, and they would have to apply under the 17 TERP-style thing to refit or replace their engines. 18 MELANIE OLDHAM: (Inaudible) we've been 19 trying to get our different projects for them to do 20 that. It's not required still. But you know, like we 21 have -- like they're getting ready to widen our channel 22 of our Port of Freeport and we found out in three months 23 they're going to put out 830 tons per year of NOx just 24 in a three-month period, 830. And finally TCEQ is 25 helping us, and they're going to require more -- try to 33 1 find dredgers that use -- retrofit their engines, use 2 cleaner fuel. It used to be optional. Now we're 3 finally getting some of that (inaudible) more mandatory, 4 or use electric dredging which (inaudible). 5 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah, on a -- 6 MELANIE OLDHAM: And it puts out a lot of 7 NOx. 8 MR. LINDHJEM: I think what we're trying to 9 avoid here is getting into the permits issue and what 10 would be done -- yeah. Because that would be part of a 11 regulation, really. I consider permits regulation. 12 Okay. 13 Now -- 14 MELANIE OLDHAM: You're talking about all 15 voluntary, you know, because voluntary is not working in 16 our area. I'm talking later. In Brazoria County, it's 17 not working because our NOx has gone from bad to worse. 18 We're a severe nonattainment county like Galveston and 19 Harris County, and we are -- now little Brazoria County 20 is No. 4 in Texas for bad ozone, No. 14 in the nation 21 for bad ozone. We've moved ahead of Dallas County, 22 little Brazoria County, southern Brazoria County where 23 the port is and the chemical industry -- 24 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah, and you're largely 25 upwind of Harris County and Galveston County, so 34 1 that's -- 2 MELANIE OLDHAM: But we do get some 3 (inaudible) draft winds, but we make our own ozone. 4 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. 5 MELANIE OLDHAM: You know, the port -- the 6 ships coming into the port and the chemical industry 7 there. And we have the sunlight. We have perfect 8 conditions (inaudible). 9 MR. LINDHJEM: Okay. So you have to 10 remember that, you know, we were tasked with looking at 11 these kind of voluntary or something we could locally 12 implement, and so your comments -- 13 MELANIE OLDHAM: (Inaudible) advocate for 14 public health and it's not working. It's not working 15 (inaudible) -- 16 MR. LINDHJEM: That's why TCEQ is here to 17 listen to the public comments. 18 MELANIE OLDHAM: Are they? They are? 19 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah. 20 (Inaudible.) 21 MELANIE OLDHAM: I'm sorry. Who's here 22 with TCEQ? 23 DONNA HUFF: Donna Huff. 24 MELANIE OLDHAM: Are you with Susanna 25 Hildebrand's (inaudible). 35 1 DONNA HUFF: Uh-huh (inaudible). 2 MELANIE OLDHAM: Okay. Great. So she'll 3 be taking notes. 4 MR. LINDHJEM: You should be taking notes 5 for them, yeah. 6 MELANIE OLDHAM: (Inaudible) is that 7 voluntary is not working within Brazoria County. 8 MR. LINDHJEM: Okay. All right. You've 9 been waiting patiently. 10 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you looking at 11 me? 12 MR. LINDHJEM: Yes, I'm looking at you. 13 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) than when 14 I first raised my hand. 15 First thing I wanted to say is to clarify. 16 The fact that the area has become severe is 17 not because we got worse. It's because we requested to 18 be designated as a higher level, even though we got 19 better, as a way to bide time to give us till 2018 20 (inaudible) because we couldn't (inaudible) compliance 21 by the previous date. 22 We didn't actually get worse. And I think 23 that's very confusing. 24 MELANIE OLDHAM: Well, we did in some ways. 25 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, we didn't. We 36 1 had fewer number of ozone days and the ozone levels are 2 lower. 3 The other reason why this is (inaudible) -- 4 MELANIE OLDHAM: Maybe Harris County 5 (inaudible). 6 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- is that there have 7 been three ozone standards. The first one was the one 8 hour, and then the first eight-hour came into play, and 9 that's the one we're talking about, and now the second 10 eight-hour comes into play, which is the lower level. 11 MELANIE OLDHAM: 75 parts per billion. 12 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. 13 MELANIE OLDHAM: It should be 60 14 (inaudible). 15 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's 75. And maybe 16 it will become 60 some day. 17 MELANIE OLDHAM: Where it should be. Take 18 public health. Yes, ma'am. 19 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We didn't actually 20 become worse (inaudible). We are better. It's -- and 21 it's really labels that gives us time to work this 22 process. That's all it is. 23 Second thing I wanted to say is the 24 ocean-going vessels in California, I think the winds go 25 from west to east and so no matter where they are when 37 1 they're running up coast, the emissions are going to end 2 up on land. 3 Here, however the winds are, I think 4 they're -- they're less predictable, and all those 5 emissions don't necessarily end up in Houston-Galveston 6 area. So I would think that -- I mean, it's a lot of 7 tons, but I would think that whatever they're doing in 8 California would not be a direct correlation to what we 9 would do -- (inaudible) a model to understand it. 10 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. That's what I got 11 back with -- you know, you can play the tonnage number 12 game or you can look at some other things. 13 And actually, I put that in here in the 14 presentation that there's spatial issues with regard to 15 the -- to the emissions. And that -- and that's 16 actually why berthing would be the No. 1 is because 17 that's definitely on land and it's definitely right 18 where are -- we're seeing the highest ozone, you know. 19 And so those would be the ones you'd want to look at, 20 you know. And then the engine and fuel controls, that's 21 further out, and then the speed controls even further 22 out, so... 23 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: I neglected to get 24 people to identify. 25 Could you tell me. 38 1 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay. It's 2 (inaudible). 3 THE REPORTER: Okay. You're going to have 4 to slow down and speak up because I can't hear you. 5 MARISE TEXTOR: Okay. It's Marise, 6 M-a-r-i-s-e, Textor, T-e-x-t-o-r. 7 I'm with Texas Petrochemicals, and we're 8 also a member of the Houston Regional Monitoring 9 Network, that's why I'm familiar with some of the data. 10 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: And this is -- 11 MELANIE OLDHAM: I'm Melanie Oldham. And 12 I'm a health care professional for 26 years and advocate 13 for public health and environmental regulation from 14 Brazoria County. And my representative is Dennis Bonnen 15 (inaudible) Chairman of Environmental Regulations for 16 the state. 17 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: And then Brandt. 18 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Brandt, B-r-a-n-d-t, 19 Mannchen, M-a-n-n-c-h-e-n, with The Houston Sierra Club. 20 DANA BLUME: And Dana Blume, B-l-u-m-e, 21 with the Port of Houston Authority. 22 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Thank you. 23 MARISE TEXTOR: The other question I wanted 24 to ask, on pay-as-you-drive insurance, it looks like the 25 cost of that -- if I'm reading the table correctly -- is 39 1 much higher than the fuel taxes. And I would think that 2 would be kind of complicated because for the driving 3 that's done in the course of your business, where the 4 IRS sets the rate that can be deducted from taxes or 5 reimbursed, it would have to be different for the 6 paid -- if the pay-as-you-drive substantially increased 7 the cost of driving the vehicle in this area. 8 Like now the IRS sets one rate nationally 9 every year, and they would have to -- 10 MR. LINDHJEM: 50 cents. For 2009, it will 11 be 50 cents a mile but -- 12 MARISE TEXTOR: Yeah, well, it's 58 and a 13 half right now. 14 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. It will be 50 next 15 year. 16 MARISE TEXTOR: (Inaudible) the price of 17 gasoline is now. 18 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. 19 MARISE TEXTOR: You know, so this is like a 20 nickel or something a mile or -- I don't know what -- it 21 may be five cents per gallon of gasoline. 22 MR. LINDHJEM: Well, I mean, think about 23 it. Let's make the math easy. $2 a gallon -- that's 24 where it is where I live -- and 20 miles per gallon, 25 that's 10 cents a mile. So 5 cents a mile is, you know, 40 1 half the cost of the fuel. 2 MARISE TEXTOR: Yeah. Exactly. 3 MR. LINDHJEM: But you know, we see that 4 price signals do have -- it does have a signal. You'd 5 say, "Oh, well, you know. Nobody cares about the price 6 of fuel." But they do. You know, in the extreme, you 7 do. So in the increment you do see some reduction 8 associated with the price of fuel. You know, the more 9 that is, the bigger the benefit you get. 10 I mean, if you -- if you talk about -- 11 again, make the -- 50 cents a mile. Of that, 10 cents a 12 mile is fuel; the other 40 cents is the cost of the 13 vehicle, the insurance, maintenance -- I don't know. 14 What else? Some other things baked into that -- that 15 figure of 50 cents a mile. 16 So if you could make it incremental, which 17 is what you try to do with pay-as-you-drive insurance, 18 then you have a signal, a price signal, that people see, 19 you know. And put a thing on your dash that shows the 20 dollars ringing up as you go, you know, a little taxi 21 cab thing. 22 DANA BLUME: So does this pay-as-you-drive 23 insurance measure promote people buying more 24 fuel-efficient vehicles, also? 25 MR. LINDHJEM: Not necessarily. It -- 41 1 DANA BLUME: And has anyone ever done -- is 2 there a place that does this successfully? 3 MR. LINDHJEM: There's been pilot programs 4 in Dallas -- and I think they did one here, right, 5 Shelley, for a little bit, Progressive? 6 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: For a little bit. They 7 had a pilot project with Progressive Insurance 8 (inaudible) participate (inaudible) and it was not 9 successful here, but this was several years ago. Dallas 10 has just started it. 11 DANA BLUME: Uh-huh. 12 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: And it is, again, with 13 Progressive Insurance Company, and they claim that it is 14 somewhat successful. 15 DANA BLUME: So if you don't drive your 16 vehicle as often as you could and if I decided to 17 carpool, then my insurance could actually be lower, too, 18 right? Am I understanding this correct? Because my 19 vehicle miles traveled would be less. 20 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. Right. Anything 21 that reduces a travel -- 22 DANA BLUME: (Inaudible). 23 MR. LINDHJEM: -- is going to be -- is 24 going to be an incentive to drive less? 25 DANA BLUME: Then how do you track this? 42 1 MR. LINDHJEM: How do you track this? 2 Well, it's -- the insurance companies would be able to 3 track it because they have to get zero odometer every 4 year. 5 DANA BLUME: But who would they give -- I 6 mean, who in the insurance company (inaudible) in my 7 opinion doesn't care about air quality, but would they 8 turn around and give it to you at H-GAC to do or at TCEQ 9 or... 10 I just wonder how can we really make this 11 quantifiable, qualitative. 12 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: (Inaudible) when -- 13 MR. LINDHJEM: Quantitative. 14 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: (Inaudible) the 15 insurance company (inaudible). I'm not sure how it's 16 being done in Dallas. 17 MR. LINDHJEM: I mean, you can always do it 18 by a survey method where you get a list of people 19 participating in the program and they're -- before and 20 after, or their travel versus the standard, you know -- 21 you know, another pool of drivers who aren't part of the 22 program kind of a thing. 23 So there is -- there are ways to do it. 24 Some are more expensive than others. If you can get the 25 insurance companies to report it, that saves you a lot 43 1 of administration costs, but there are ways to actually 2 go out there and collect that sort of data. 3 MELANIE OLDHAM: On control strategies, you 4 were talking about, you know (inaudible) the speed for 5 marine vehicles, but what about reducing the speed for 6 trucks and just automobiles? I know that was discussed 7 back in '04, '06, about decreasing the speed, like limit 8 to 55 (inaudible). What happened to that? There was a 9 lot of discussion about the lawnmowers that put out a 10 lot of bad stuff, you know, having them operate only 11 certain hours and -- was any of that implemented -- 12 MR. LINDHJEM: Construction equipment was 13 part of it. 14 There was a -- well, we'll get to the lawn 15 and garden. Let's see. 16 Speed. I'm not going to be able to answer 17 that. That's going to be either Shelley or TCEQ. 18 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: We actually did have a 19 55-mile-an-hour speed limit and we had such a 20 (inaudible) and outcry from the public, that our elected 21 officials got into it. And actually some of the speed 22 limits that had been set, they raised them somewhat up 23 to that 60 and 65, if they can be justified for safety 24 reasons. And those stayed in place. But the state 25 legislature actually passed a law saying that there 44 1 would be no more environmental speed limits. So that is 2 not a measure that's been (inaudible). 3 DANA BLUME: (Inaudible) can't be lowered 4 environmental reasons (inaudible). 5 MELANIE OLDHAM: Even protect public 6 health. 7 Well, I'd just like to comment. You know, 8 again, my representative is Dennis Bonnen, Chairman of 9 Environmental Regulation, and I was at a meeting in Lake 10 Jackson Civic Center when they proposed a lot of these 11 control options, and one was lowering the speed limit to 12 55 and decreasing (inaudible) the lawnmowers could 13 operate. And I swear, out of hundreds of people, five 14 people stood up and said, "Well, I don't want to be 15 inconvenienced by having to drive from Lake Jackson to 16 Houston at 55 and I have to get up 20 minutes earlier." 17 And my rep, Dennis Bonnen, stood up and said, "Okay. 18 Well, we're not going to do it then. I'm going to go to 19 Austin, and we're going to change -- write a bill." 20 The thing is -- my point is why not educate 21 folks? Say, Brazoria County, we're No. 4 in Texas for 22 ozone. Your kids can't even go out on a lot of days 23 when they have asthma. What I didn't see was hardly any 24 education. There was just a few folks that got fired up 25 saying, "No, we're not going to slow down to 55. We're 45 1 not going to operate our lawnmowers, you know, at 6:00 2 p.m. We're going to do it when we want to during the 3 day." 4 But -- you know, all these control measures 5 are great, but if there's not education -- there's going 6 to be outcry from the public, and then a legislator like 7 Dennis Bonnen will say, "Well, I'm going to go up there, 8 and I'll just straighten it out with (inaudible) ever 9 raised the speed limit for it," you know. But it's for 10 public -- if we explain to the public it's for your 11 public health and so your kids and you can go outside 12 and breathe, you know, because our county -- you know, 13 Dennis Bonnen should be embarrassed because his county 14 is one of the worst in Texas right now. I mean, we're 15 -- you know, we're with you guys. We're severe 16 nonattainment. 17 And by the way, we have gotten better since 18 the '70s when the air was terrible in Southern Brazoria 19 County, but it has leveled off. And the American Lung 20 Association has given Brazoria County an F for five 21 years for ozone. Our design value is 96 for three years 22 average and that's after they moved our best reliable 23 monitor out of Clute, Texas (inaudible) (electronic 24 device interruption) dredging private projects going on. 25 And my thing is, you know, none of these control methods 46 1 are going to work, and people -- we got to have more 2 public education about how this is going to help your 3 children and grandchildren and improve public health. 4 And being an advocate for public health, I 5 look at it from this side and I hope all of us do here. 6 I mean, it comes down to our health, you know, and none 7 of this -- you know, I've heard all this discussion 8 that -- you know, like for trucks. I know we can't talk 9 about regulation, you know, but actually on the books, 10 TCEQ has a law that they wrote way back when that they 11 could enforce keeping -- asking trucking companies to 12 retrofit their engines to clean up the NOx and the bad 13 stuff coming out. But I watched in '05 when my rep, 14 Dennis Bonnen, wrote a bill himself, saying, "No. We're 15 going to put that on hold. We're not going to allow 16 TCEQ to enforce that. We're going to let these trucking 17 companies have more time to think about if they want to 18 retrofit their engines." 19 And then in '07, I was up there in Austin 20 again, and I saw Dennis Bonnen's friend that he 21 appointed to his committee write a bill, again saying, 22 "Now we're going to hold it again. We're going to let 23 these trucks idle." And I went in the hallway. The 24 trucking companies were celebrating because they did not 25 have to spend a little extra money to protect our health 47 1 and -- but that's the issue, you know, is -- if it's 2 not -- you know, we're -- we have rules. TCEQ has them. 3 And I used to get upset with TCEQ but, quite frankly, 4 their budget has been cut the last three sessions in 5 Austin. They are spread so thin here in Houston, I 6 can't, you know, put the blame on them because they have 7 limited staff. And they -- they train great staff to 8 investigate down in our county, and then industry buys 9 them away, pays them a little bit more, and there they 10 go. 11 I know I'm kind of rambling around, but the 12 issue is that voluntary is not working in Brazoria 13 County. And I hope somebody here that knows Dennis 14 Bonnen will go back and tell him we need a Chairman of 15 Environmental Regulations for the State of Texas that 16 cares with public health, and he did not -- you know, 17 here in Houston, there was 15 -- I mean, legislators, 18 Democrat and Republican. They wrote 15 clean air 19 bills -- and I know this is regulation again. 20 But my rep, Dennis Bonnen -- I was there -- 21 did not even allow any of the 15 bills to be heard in 22 his committee, let alone discuss. 23 This state will not make progress until 24 there can be open discussion about protecting public 25 health. Sure, we want jobs and we want industry, but in 48 1 my county, it's gone from low regulation to no 2 regulation. And this thing -- you know, I'm sorry. I'm 3 just really, as you can tell, frustrated. 4 And I've heard for years and years all 5 about these nice control techniques, and I know you all 6 take a lot of time to think them up and come up with the 7 scientific reasons, and then my rep like Dennis Bonnen 8 will just throw it out. Well, who cares about the 9 scientific reasons or the public health side of it: 10 "You know, if a few people in my county are a little 11 upset because they have to slow down and get up 20 12 minutes earlier to drive to Houston, then we're not 13 going to do it." 14 And so that's the frustration. I'm 15 talking, you know, to TCEQ because I've talked to 16 Ms. Susanna Hildebrand, your supervisor. She's 17 frustrated, too. She can only do so much because the 18 voluntary is not working in most places. 19 You know, some good companies are doing 20 some good things, like BASF in our area, they've done 21 some good things. I'll give the companies credit that 22 are doing things on their own and they're applying for 23 TERP funds. There are good companies that are doing the 24 right thing, but there's a lot of others that aren't 25 doing it voluntarily and... 49 1 MR. LINDHJEM: And all I can say is that, 2 you know -- 3 MELANIE OLDHAM: (Inaudible) I mean, I know 4 you all spend so much time -- 5 MR. LINDHJEM: H-GAC and I were tasked with 6 just voluntary controls, and TCEQ said we'll handle 7 rules, regulations and laws. 8 MELANIE OLDHAM: Right. The following 9 thing is I know for a fact that Governor Perry and my 10 rep, Dennis Bonnen -- I read the proclamation he wrote 11 that said, "Well, sorry. We thought we might be able to 12 use the control techniques, you know, and achieve what 13 we need to achieve for public health by '09 or, you 14 know, 2010, but we just can't," so -- he -- I mean, 15 they -- they said, "We want to push it clear back as far 16 as we can to 2018," and they got their wish. 17 I know folks at EPA in Dallas said they 18 fought against that. Higher up in Dallas said, "No, 19 we're going to push it back to 2018." 20 I think it's a crime, because for nine 21 years, we're going to have to put up with bad, dirty 22 air. I'm sorry, but I think these -- we need to really 23 come up with some good control techniques and then go to 24 the public and explain, "Well, this is what we got to 25 do. It might inconvenience you a little bit, but we're 50 1 going to help you. We're going to give you funds to 2 retrofit your car engines to get cleaner vehicles, use 3 electric cars, hybrid cars" -- 4 MR. LINDHJEM: To get -- 5 MELANIE OLDHAM: But you've got to educate 6 the public or they don't know -- you know, they think 7 well -- you say what's going to affect the health of 8 your children and grandchildren. You know, that's the 9 only thing that gets people's attention? 10 MR. LINDHJEM: Well, I think if you look 11 back and you mention -- you mentioned lawn and garden 12 restrictions, time restrictions, but the bigger one was 13 things like construction equipment restrictions, time of 14 day. 15 The other -- there was another one that 16 came out of one of our earlier things, what, five years 17 ago -- 18 MELANIE OLDHAM: (Inaudible). 19 MR. LINDHJEM: We were looking at -- we 20 were looking at a replacement-type program, and we said, 21 "Well, you know, if you replace all these engines, you 22 get so much reduction." And industry said, "No, we 23 can't do that," but what came out of that was the TERP 24 program. 25 Now -- so in that case what happened was is 51 1 instead of a regulation, what they have is a voluntary 2 measure, but a well-funded voluntary measure. And 3 that's really the key here, is dollars. Who's paying 4 and who's -- you know, for the emission reduction. 5 So I think in the case of a voluntary 6 program, you have to think about, oh, dollars. If we 7 can throw dollars at it, you can actually affect some 8 emission reduction by getting people to do what they 9 wouldn't want to do under a regulation because it's 10 costing them money. But if they get paid for it, 11 they're more willing to do it. And I think that's what 12 we've seen in the TERP program. 13 MELANIE OLDHAM: A lot of companies 14 (inaudible) it's good to be environmentally friendly 15 because they get good PR if they can show they really 16 care about the community around them -- 17 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah, PR isn't really a 18 bottom line issue for a lot of companies -- 19 MELANIE OLDHAM: (Inaudible) and I hear 20 that. 21 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah, it's not a bottom line 22 issue for a lot of companies because it doesn't -- I 23 mean, look -- let's say if you're -- if you're a 24 railroad and you replace all your engines, has it really 25 changed the fact that people get angry that you're -- 52 1 you have to wait at the crossing, the gate crossing? 2 Does it really affect people when the noise is in their 3 backyard? Not -- you know, not all. 4 MELANIE OLDHAM: (Inaudible) but if the 5 public knew how bad those old, old engines -- we have 6 rail all through Brazoria County. 7 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. 8 MELANIE OLDHAM: (Inaudible) in and out, 9 and those old engines put out so much bad stuff, people 10 don't realize what it was doing to their health and 11 their kids' health. 12 MR. LINDHJEM: Yeah. That's why the TERP 13 program focused on them a lot. 14 MELANIE OLDHAM: The engines are old in 15 our -- I mean, they're bad. 16 MR. LINDHJEM: Right. That's where you 17 found a huge -- they replaced half of the switching 18 engines in this area with clean engines. 19 MELANIE OLDHAM: Is everybody doing their 20 part, you know -- 21 MR. LINDHJEM: Well, they're doing their 22 part but, you know, it's a bottom line issue for them. 23 Are they going to spend -- hang on. How much 24 (inaudible). 25 MELANIE OLDHAM: It comes down to money. 53 1 MR. LINDHJEM: It comes down to money, is 2 really what it comes down to. 3 MELANIE OLDHAM: Not public health money. 4 I know. I have (inaudible). 5 MR. LINDHJEM: Well, it's -- 6 MELANIE OLDHAM: My family that worked high 7 up in industry. 8 MR. LINDHJEM: You know, I'm not -- you 9 know, I'm not like a -- I'm not an advocate for them one 10 way or the other, but I'm just trying to explain where 11 they're coming from. 12 MELANIE OLDHAM: Oh, I understand. Bottom 13 line. 14 MR. LINDHJEM: It's a bottom line dollar 15 issue. 16 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Chris. 17 RUSSELL ERMAN: I'm here to represent some 18 of the public outcry that she was talking about. 19 MR. LINDHJEM: Okay. 20 MR. ERMAN: My name is Russell Erman (ph). 21 I have property in the east side of the city, and we 22 have a hot spot there. We've been on television about 23 it, that needs to be taken care of. 24 One of my neighbors, Marcie Anderson, came 25 with me tonight. Her next door neighbor died from the 54 1 pollution. 2 We have four children over there, age 24 3 months, 36 months, 9 years and 11 years. They're on 4 breathing machines. Their doctors said, "Don't go in 5 your front porch," like the lady that lived next door to 6 Marcie. 7 We've had public officials over there en 8 masse, and they were not happy with the pollution that 9 exists near the corner of Scott and Leland Street, which 10 is Oak Farms Dairy. 11 What do we have there? We have 65 12 18-wheelers running 24 hours a day with diesel emissions 13 that are not even stopped to refuel. A truck comes to 14 them between 6:00 and 9:00 o'clock in the morning -- 15 which I have pictures of -- and fills them up while 16 they're running. 17 They've closed four of our streets. It's 18 tearing up our community. 19 The Mayor tried to fight this (electronic 20 interference) Council Chambers Rita Renz (ph) was there 21 (inaudible). I've talked with her about the replacement 22 suggested to Oak Farms that they might get some engines 23 over there. And all that's happened after four years of 24 my fighting about it, 10 years Marcie's been with it, 25 and the 307 people that we got to sign our petition in 55 1 the immediate area, is that a few months ago, City 2 Council approved closing two more streets, which are 3 going to be turned into larger parking lots, and we'll 4 have more trucks. And the pollution is so bad -- they 5 are just trying to drive down our property values and 6 buy more property to expand the plant, which is less 7 than a mile from downtown City of Houston. 8 Somebody needs to get over there and do 9 something. We didn't know who to contact other than 10 Ms. Renz in the TCEQ and we didn't -- you know, we 11 didn't know how to begin to tackle dealing with all the 12 state legislatures. We had our hands full with City 13 Council. 14 The Mayor tried. He got his wrists slapped 15 because he was trying to do this all down the Ship 16 Channel. And they're talking about if you live there 17 for seven years, you're going to have another person die 18 from cancer out of every 100,000; and yet, I can't go 19 outside without getting sick from the horrible diesel 20 smell. 21 One night I got dizzy out there and they 22 wanted to take me to the hospital and I refused. And I 23 waited four hours as I was being promised by the Mayor's 24 office that an inspector was going to show up. They 25 never came until after I was gone the next morning. 56 1 But the city did a 44-page report about how 2 bad the pollution is at that location, and we've done 3 everything to get it stopped and it just seems like -- 4 frankly, like people are being paid to keep it going. 5 MELANIE OLDHAM: And, sir, the sad part is 6 there's all kinds of great technology out there. I've 7 heard since '03 about clean air technology, you know, 8 how they were going to require (inaudible) at the truck 9 stops, so they build -- have voluntarily hookups so 10 trucks can go on -- when they need to -- anyway, there's 11 all kinds of technology out there, but there's not been 12 any enforcement -- 13 RUSSELL ERMAN: The sad part of it is -- 14 MELANIE OLDHAM: -- at all. 15 RUSSELL ERMAN: -- while we see it's 16 spewing out -- 17 MELANIE OLDHAM: And the TCEQ, their hands 18 are tied somewhat. 19 RUSSELL ERMAN: While we see it spewing out 20 of the exhaust of these engines, we learned that it's 21 even worse if we don't see it because the particulates 22 are even smaller that trigger heart attacks -- 23 MELANIE OLDHAM: Trigger heart attacks, 24 yes, sir. 25 RUSSELL ERMAN: -- like they did in her 57 1 neighbor next door to her. 2 MELANIE OLDHAM: We have the same thing in 3 our county, premature heart attacks, people in their 4 forties and fifties having heart attacks. 5 We have three types of cancer higher than 6 to be expected. Lung cancer in men, non Hodgkin's 7 lymphoma in women, and both kinds of leukemia in 8 children. The four-year-old across the street from me 9 died of leukemia last year. 10 I mean, the cost of -- of this taking so 11 long. Now we have 2018 to put up with all this dirty 12 air. It's a crime because -- 13 RUSSELL ERMAN: How can we get someone to 14 test the hot spots? 15 MELANIE OLDHAM: We can't even get bills 16 heard about hot spots. You're in a hot spot. I live in 17 a hot spot. We cannot get my rep, Dennis Bonnen, to 18 allow discussion about just focusing on the hot spots. 19 We have -- 20 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Melissa Noriega said 21 her -- her husband was going to look into it. He was in 22 the legislature -- 23 MELANIE OLDHAM: He tried. 24 RUSSELL ERMAN: And you know, we didn't 25 have anything happen. Melissa was out of town when the 58 1 vote came up. We were very upset. We thought we had a 2 lot of support in City Council and -- 3 MELANIE OLDHAM: Mayor White does 4 everything he can, but his hands are tied somewhat, too. 5 RUSSELL ERMAN: You know, we were told, you 6 know, that they would call us and we could come speak 7 one last time. They called us after they voted. She 8 was out of town and I asked some of the other City 9 Council members what happened and they called her office 10 and they were told -- you know, they said should we vote 11 against this, and they said: It really doesn't matter. 12 We were very upset. 13 I've left my office, closed my business, 14 closed my store and gone down many, many times and 15 talked before City Council. And we have had them come 16 out. We've had them do a report, but what good is a 17 report? I mean, we've got it black on white that the 18 pollution is horrible over there and nothing's being 19 stopped. 20 They've actually sold city streets that we 21 pay taxes for. They've sold our city streets and 22 they're turning them into larger parking lots for more 23 trucks to park, not move. 24 MELANIE OLDHAM: Until some day we get a 25 Chairman of Environmental Regulation that cares about 59 1 public health in this state, nothing is going to change 2 because voluntary just isn't working. We're going to 3 have to write some state laws. 4 Y'all are lucky that you have Mayor White. 5 Y'all have a lot of good reps that care up here. I 6 mean, they wrote 15 clean air bills and one -- two of 7 them were to focus on hot spots. But again, my rep, 8 Dennis Bonnen, stopped all 15. They were not even heard 9 in his committee last session. 10 So until we get new leadership, you know... 11 BRANDT MANNCHEN: We work for new 12 leadership. I went and put out 700 signs myself all 13 over the city for one of the people that I got -- they 14 admitted I did more than most and I did that and got 15 three different City Council members in. 16 And I looked at their voting record. None 17 of them voted to stop it. And I've asked for months and 18 months and months to get a copy of who has made campaign 19 contributions. I don't have the Internet. I'm not on a 20 computer and even -- I cannot get it from the City's 21 secretary's office. It's all being covered over. From 22 one representative, I had someone at Mothers of Clean 23 Air look up for me, they got contributions from the 24 dairy. 25 MELANIE OLDHAM: My -- one final thing. 60 1 Dennis Bonnen, my rep, gets 94 percent of 2 his contributions from oil, gas and chemical industry, 3 94 percent. That tells you right there who he's -- he 4 doesn't care about us, his constituents. It tells you 5 right there. 6 RUSSELL ERMAN: We're in the same boat. 7 MELANIE OLDHAM: And we're hot spots. And 8 I know you all mean well with all these control 9 techniques, but we don't have the leadership supporting 10 us. 11 CHRIS LINDHJEM: I don't know what to say, 12 you know. 13 MELANIE OLDHAM: TCEQ -- I used to focus my 14 anger at them, but I've seen what they've had to deal 15 with, too, with the state cutting their funds and their 16 staff. 17 RUSSELL ERMAN: I have on authority that 18 Mayor White, after he questioned Ms. Renz and she spoke 19 before hundreds of people in the Council chambers, she 20 said it was handled. And he said: Well, the TCEQ 21 thinks it is handled, but it is absolutely not handled. 22 And we need to do something. And his hands were tied 23 because the state laws superceded what he was trying to 24 do. 25 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Yeah. Shelley, I wanted 61 1 to make a short statement. 2 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Sure. 3 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Do I need to stand up 4 there and -- 5 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: You can -- 6 CHRIS LINDHJEM: Actually, let me just 7 finish this last slide here. I just wanted to give 8 people an overview of what were going on. 9 We just published our draft report last 10 week. In the Section 5 of that report, I give a summary 11 of all the measures, then you can go down them and see 12 there's sort of the emission reduction potential and 13 cost effectiveness. 14 And then I have -- in the appendices, I 15 have a detailed discussion with a lot more detail -- a 16 lot finer resolution of -- of how we came up with our 17 estimates and what are the considerations with each 18 measure. 19 This meeting and comments lasting until 20 when is -- 21 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) January 22 15. 23 CHRIS LINDHJEM: January 15th? So the 24 comments on this report are due January 15th. And I 25 guess we'll hold another meeting sometime in January. 62 1 And then we're due to have a final report on February 2 20. That's what Graciela tells me, so that's when we'll 3 have the final report after we get all the comments and 4 have time to digest them. And we can continue the 5 discussion after -- Michael? 6 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Brandt. 7 CHRIS LINDHJEM: Brandt -- Brandt is 8 finished with his -- his talk or statement. 9 I don't know that that's plugged in. 10 BRANDT MANNCHEN: It's always easier to 11 face people than (inaudible). 12 I want to thank Chris for making the 13 presentation. I want to thank H-GAC for this meeting; 14 however, I do want to make some suggestions for next 15 time. 16 Holding a meeting five days after it's been 17 published in the paper is awfully quick turnaround for 18 people. 19 CHRIS LINDHJEM: Three days. We didn't 20 publish until Friday, the report. 21 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Right, right. I'm going 22 to get to that, but I'm talking about five days in the 23 paper about this public meeting. It was published on 24 December the 3rd and this is December 8th, so that's 25 five days. 63 1 And then the report was finished and put on 2 the web, as I understand it, on the evening of the 5th. 3 I checked in the afternoon of the 5th and didn't think 4 to check again until today. The report was 244 pages 5 long and I've only read probably about 30 pages or so. 6 And to me -- I know you wanted to get Chris here, but to 7 me, this is a wasted meeting because I could have had -- 8 if I'd had the time, I could have read this and could 9 have presented detailed comments, but I'm going to have 10 to wait until the second meeting. So for me, it's kind 11 of a wasted meeting. 12 Also, it's getting around Christmastime. 13 Others who should be here like Matt Tejado (ph) with 14 Gas, he didn't even know this meeting was happening. 15 He contacted him by e-mail and he said: I 16 didn't even know this meeting was going on. 17 MELANIE OLDHAM: (Inaudible). 18 BRANDT MANNCHEN: So I want to encourage 19 H-GAC if you don't have an Internet list of people who 20 are interested, then get one together because the only 21 way I knew about this was through the newspaper. I did 22 not receive anything by the web or the Internet, and so 23 I think there were probably other people that might have 24 been interested. 25 With respect to what I have read, I'd like 64 1 to make just a couple of comments. 2 It would be helpful for those permanent, 3 quantifiable, surplus and enforceable to be defined in 4 the report so that we can understand what those things 5 actually mean, as far as how they were used in the 6 report for the public. So I'd like to encourage that 7 those official definitions that EPA uses for those be 8 put in the report so that we understand what -- what 9 that means. 10 With regard to No. 3, Item No. 3, 11 Table 4-1, private sector cleaner fuel vehicles. I 12 think one of the key there is how do you monitor and 13 verify and have oversight that a private fleet is, in 14 fact, doing what it says it's going to do. 15 When we get into voluntary, I think it's 16 always a problem with private because if it's private 17 and voluntary, then who's going to go out and make sure 18 that they're doing what they say they're doing? I just 19 think that's -- that's important to keep in mind as we 20 look at all of these voluntary things somehow. 21 TCEQ, you know, if it's a regulation or a 22 rule or a law, you know, they can go out and knock on 23 someone's door and say: Yeah, we want to see what 24 you've been doing. But if it's voluntary, who can do 25 and make sure that they're maintaining what they say 65 1 they're going to do? I think it's just an important 2 thought. 3 With regard to the law enforcement part, 4 there was something in here that spoke to law 5 enforcement. It's -- when we're not -- when we're going 6 against traffic, not when you're bogged down in traffic, 7 but when you're going against traffic, my estimate is 8 that if the speed limit is 60, people are going 70 to 80 9 miles an hour, whenever they can. We have a tremendous 10 problem of not getting people to slow down and that's 11 not reflected in Mobile 6 now, because it only goes up 12 to 65 miles an hour. And I think we need to focus in 13 some places on getting people to slow down. And that's 14 also a safety issue. 15 I didn't see one on dedicated truck lanes 16 and I haven't looked at auto, but dedicated truck lanes 17 to me, in certain situations, would increase or should 18 make traffic flow better, both for the trucks and for 19 the other vehicles. And I'd like to at least have that 20 kind of looked at as dedicated truck lanes. 21 I'd also like to see one -- there was 22 something in here talking about the TERP or I should -- 23 sorry, the "lie wrap" [sic] as being applied to an older 24 vehicle population. But how about a control measure 25 that focuses on reducing fleet age? I don't know -- 66 1 you're going to have to pick an age. You're going to 2 have to pick a date, a year, and say: Let's try and get 3 as many cars under that as we can because each year or 4 every couple years, we get a little bit cleaner 5 vehicles. So why not have a focus on reducing fleet age 6 and maybe that would help. 7 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: And Brandt, how would 8 this be different from, like, the current programs that 9 we have for replacement? 10 BRANDT MANNCHEN: I'm talking about overall 11 in the whole City of Houston, you know. Wherever we can 12 encourage people to get whatever date we pick, whatever 13 year we pick -- 1996, I don't know what it would be, you 14 know, but trying to get people to focus on getting a 15 newer model than that. It seems like overall we could 16 push down emissions if -- if that were a consideration 17 for people. Maybe the "lie wrap" or -- needs to be more 18 focused on getting those folks newer model vehicles, 19 even more focused. I don't know. 20 But also when we talk about high occupancy 21 vehicle lanes in a lot of these, they're going to all 22 change to hot soon pretty much, so I think that's going 23 to change somewhat what the estimates or the 24 applicability of some of these control measures are. I 25 don't like that, but that's what Metro looks like it's 67 1 going to do, so that may make some of those not so -- 2 DANA BLUME: Can you ex- -- I don't know 3 what that is. 4 BRANDT MANNCHEN: High occupancy toll 5 roads, okay? So in other words, instead of having high 6 occupancy vehicles, two or more people or van pools or 7 buses, we're going to allow some single occupancy 8 vehicles onto those HOV lanes. 9 DANA BLUME: If they pay or something? 10 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Yeah, they're going to 11 pay a toll so they can go ahead and use that. And so 12 that may change what Chris and them have done, it may 13 not, but it's something to take into account. 14 I guess -- I guess my comment about the -- 15 enforcing the law. Here it says lower it to 55. Don't 16 lower it to 55. Just enforce the speeding laws now and 17 bring people down that are speeding 10 to 20 miles an 18 hour above the -- you know, the speed limit when they -- 19 they can accomplish that, you know. If you could do 20 that, you'd reduce a heck of a lot of NOx and VOC, in my 21 opinion. 22 And there are a couple terms I wasn't 23 familiar with. Route traffic platooning? And adaptive 24 traffic signals and -- I know signal timing, but 25 adaptive traffic signals? I wasn't familiar with 68 1 those -- those terms and it might be helpful to look 2 through the report and see if there's some things that 3 you might want to define that aren't normally stated in 4 normal conversation and that would be -- be helpful to 5 the public to get those defined. 6 So anyway, those are just really -- you 7 know, we haven't finished the report or anything and 8 we'll get more detailed comments, but I just wanted to 9 make at least a few comments. Thank you. 10 CHRIS LINDHJEM: You will itemize those in 11 a written -- 12 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Sure. Absolutely. 13 CHRIS LINDHJEM: Yes. That way we won't 14 forget any of it -- 15 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Right, right. 16 CHRIS LINDHJEM: Try to remember it here, 17 but -- 18 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Absolutely. 19 CHRIS LINDHJEM: It's always better to have 20 that in -- 21 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Absolutely. I need to 22 finish the report so... 23 CHRIS LINDHJEM: Okay. 24 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Okay. Were there any 25 other comments or questions? 69 1 MARCIE ANDERSON: I'd just like to note I 2 really want to agree with what she was saying. I live 3 in a high risk area right about there, Oak Farms, which 4 goes 18-wheelers -- or 18-wheelers are coming in, 5 putting out pollution. It's just like they stated. 6 There are many sick people there. My house is ruined. 7 I was there before Oak Farms had came in. Automatically 8 Oak Farms has money, so naturally they probably will be 9 able to stay there. If any moving, I'm the one that's 10 going to have to give up my beautiful home that I have 11 50 years and go somewhere else. 12 I don't know what is going to happen. It 13 seems like we cannot get any help, no one -- I don't 14 know whether people are listening or they not concerned 15 about people's health. I'm a nurse and I know when you 16 smell that -- those particles and I know it's damaging 17 to your lungs. I mean, right now I have developed 18 bronchitis and, I mean, it's serious. When I get sick, 19 I'm sick. 20 And I just really want to know, is it any 21 help out here? Will we really be able to really see 22 help? 23 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Well, there are 24 programs that are available for you to participate in 25 and maybe we just need to go and talk to them and see if 70 1 they're interested (inaudible) programs. I know we 2 haven't talked to them (inaudible). 3 BRANDT MANNCHEN: A TERP rescue mission. 4 (Inaudible talking in the audience.) 5 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Donna, I have a question 6 for you. 7 DONNA HUFF: Sure. 8 BRANDT MANNCHEN: For these folks here, if 9 an investigator could come out and detect an odor that 10 was sufficiently strong, they could be issued a nuisance 11 notice, couldn't they? 12 DONNA HUFF: To be honest, I'm not sure. I 13 don't work in the compliance department. 14 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Right. 15 DONNA HUFF: (Inaudible) the enforcement 16 department. I don't know -- 17 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Because -- 18 DONNA HUFF: (Inaudible) the trucks that 19 are idling, it's not the actual farm. It's the trucks 20 that are idling. 21 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Right. But if the trucks 22 are on their property, for instance, they're responsible 23 for whatever is on their property. 24 DANA BLUME: Do they own the trucks or are 25 they independent owners? 71 1 RUSSELL ERMAN: They own the trucks. Their 2 names are all over them. And yes, I can say "yes" to 3 your question. The City could cite them and they've 4 come out. 5 But what happened is when they had an 6 agreement that they wouldn't let any of the neighborhood 7 read -- it was just between Oak Farms and the City, when 8 it was signed, we got copies. And what it says was that 9 they would investigate or check the level of pollution 10 no more than, I think it was, three or four times a 11 year, but Oak Farms actually got to select who would be 12 doing the checking. 13 And also, they said that the monitors could 14 only be placed where they already had telephone poles or 15 whatever -- posts to put these on. Then they said it 16 was too -- the equipment was too expensive. They 17 couldn't do that. And I was told that they were going 18 out there and checking very regularly. 19 So I hadn't seen anyone and I went by three 20 times a day before I went to work on my lunch hour and 21 afterwards. Finally, I saw someone and they were way, 22 way -- just like she said. They were located way on the 23 other side of a three or four-story high plant where you 24 couldn't -- you wouldn't get the pollution that we had 25 in concentration. Actually, what they did is they got 72 1 us to -- they got a lot of people to sell out at very 2 low prices and they put what I call canyons of debt 3 because they would have eight trucks in a row. They 4 would back the next eight within five feet of them. And 5 those refrigerated units that were all working on diesel 6 would just flow heavy pollution onto my property and 7 caused my tenants, that have been there for 20 years, to 8 move out. And I can't, in good conscience, rent it to 9 anyone else knowing about the sickness that prevails 10 over there. 11 So now I'm stuck. And my taxes are going 12 up and they're saying: Well, they're building 13 townhouses ten blocks away and the property's worth a 14 lot of money over there. So I had my values go up, 15 quadrupled in one year. They doubled in the next year 16 and I'm having to pay the taxes and I have no more 17 income. And -- but Oak Farms says: Well, you don't 18 want to put us out of business, but they want to put all 19 the people out of their homes and it's very sad. 20 MARCIE ANDERSON: Same thing happened to 21 me. 22 And the noise, the noise is so loud. Sir, 23 you can't even sleep. And I know -- they wouldn't even 24 come over there and sleep in my front bedroom because 25 they wouldn't be able to go to sleep, tooting horns, 73 1 coming through the neighborhood. And we have children. 2 RUSSELL ERMAN: At midnight, they run the 3 diesel -- 4 MARCIE ANDERSON: No respect whatsoever. 5 MELANIE OLDHAM: One thing compared to us 6 in Brazoria County, y'all do have good people that care 7 like Mayor White. You have Melissa Noriega, Council 8 Woman Noriega that cares. You have Carol Alvarado, 9 who's spoken up for years and years. 10 RUSSELL ERMAN: Oh, no, no, no. Carol 11 Alvarado is the one who introduced the bill -- 12 MARCIE ANDERSON: Yes. 13 RUSSELL ERMAN: -- to close more streets. 14 She wouldn't listen -- 15 MELANIE OLDHAM: Okay. Well, she used to 16 be -- yeah. Years ago she used to have, but anyway. 17 Ms. Noriega is a good lady. 18 Can I just -- real quickly, I won't talk 19 long. 20 Again, my name is Melanie Oldham. I'm from 21 Brazoria County south of here. We are also a severe 22 nonattainment county now. We have the -- you know, we 23 are -- we have a lot of -- a lot of room for 24 improvement. And my rep, I'm going to say it again, 25 is -- my rep is Dennis Bonnen, Chairman of Environmental 74 1 Regulation for the State of Texas. My Senator is Mike 2 Jackson. Mike Jackson wrote -- tried to go up against 3 your Mayor White to protect you all and there was a bill 4 written to protect -- and a -- you can't -- working on a 5 nuisance, you know, regulations in Houston. 6 But anyway, I'm the president of Citizens 7 for Clean Air and Clean Water in Brazoria County. I've 8 been a physical therapist for 26 years and I do home 9 health now. I see the results of how these control 10 techniques, voluntary, haven't worked. I see people 11 that are having premature heart attacks, forties and 12 fifties, people that are on breathing machines and 13 oxygen 24 hours a day because they happen to live in 14 Freeport and Clute and Jones Creek near the Port of 15 Freeport and the industry and the construction going on. 16 It's not just one company. It's a combination of 17 factors. 18 And it's very frustrating, but the same 19 thing. I opened up the Facts newspaper today, Brazoria 20 County's main paper, and it said on the front page, you 21 know, that you all -- the Houston-Galveston Council were 22 going to have a meeting and, by the way, it's today at 23 6:00 o'clock. There was a lot of my friends that would 24 have come. Sharon Stewart, who's my mentor, would have 25 come, and others, but this room would have been filled 75 1 if there had been a little bit more notice. 2 And I do appreciate all the hard work that 3 y'all put together in putting down all these control 4 techniques and I just sat here and read through what I 5 could. 6 And just real quickly, you know, electric 7 vehicles. You know, California is way ahead of us. You 8 know, you've seen the movie "Who Killed the Electric 9 Car," you know, we need to go to hybrid and electric 10 cars, but they are very expensive now or help people at 11 least get newer vehicles. 12 Again, one good idea is electrifying bus 13 routes. It might be something Houston could look at 14 doing. We don't have buses in Brazoria County, so we 15 can't go that route, but trucks idling. 16 We have the Port of Freeport and they're 17 going to widen and deepen it. And my rep, Dennis 18 Bonnen, said his goal is to have 4,000 trucks a day in 19 and out of that port because when they open up the 20 Panama Canal, they're going to be coming to the Port of 21 Houston and our port. 22 The thing is that because of him and 23 others, there's -- that TCEQ cannot even enforce the 24 rules on the book for anti-idling their trucks. 25 So for you all, my thing is to go up to 76 1 Austin and try to get good legislators to continue to 2 write bills. Somehow we might get them past Dennis 3 Bonnen to at least be heard in his committee or go 4 through other committees if you have to, but it's very 5 frustrating. 6 RUSSELL ERMAN: Our Dennis Bonnen is Carol 7 Alvarado. She was just elected to state rep. 8 MELANIE OLDHAM: Right. Well, she's better 9 than Mr. Bonnen. 10 But my final -- I'd like -- like Brandt 11 said, there's a lot of us that would like to come back 12 to the second meeting. I think we'll have more educated 13 comments when we have time to read through all the hard 14 work y'all have done to put down control techniques, 15 but -- I wish I could say I had hope for us, you know. 16 I'm just sickened that we have until 2018 to supposedly, 17 you know, come up with a SIP now and supposedly start 18 cleaning up the air because the majority of folks aren't 19 doing it voluntarily. Until we get a state (inaudible), 20 there are rights and laws to protect our public health, 21 it's going to get worse and worse. 22 And I -- after seeing the four-year-old 23 across from me die of leukemia, her dad worked -- until 24 it hits you -- you know, home, personally, you don't 25 understand, but I -- I talked to Susanna Hildebrand and 77 1 folks at TCEQ in Austin that really do care but, you 2 know, our state's not supporting them either, so... 3 CHRIS LINDHJEM: Well, you know, I have to 4 point out. 5 Again, TCEQ told us do not look at 6 regulations. But you guys are talking about 7 regulations, okay? 8 MELANIE OLDHAM: Because these (inaudible) 9 aren't working (inaudible) -- 10 CHRIS LINDHJEM: So -- yeah, so you should 11 look at where regulations could occur and, you know, we 12 weren't -- originally on our master list, we had a 13 number of these options that California is doing. 14 MELANIE OLDHAM: And it's working for them 15 and they're cleaning up (inaudible) better public health 16 than we do. 17 CHRIS LINDHJEM: And that's just not our 18 charge, is to look at those. 19 MELANIE OLDHAM: That's right. I 20 understand. 21 CHRIS LINDHJEM: They have very aggressive 22 strategies for port trucks. 23 MELANIE OLDHAM: And it's working. 24 CHRIS LINDHJEM: They have very aggressive 25 strategies for private trucking fleets. You know, they 78 1 have aggressive strategies for construction equipment, 2 cargo handling equipment, all these other things. 3 We were explicitly told not to include that 4 in this study so, you know, that's a TCEQ thing that you 5 need to work out with them, as far as regulations go. 6 DONNA HUFF: Okay. And some of the rules 7 and regulations are things like -- I think some of it 8 was (inaudible) we would look at different policy 9 things, but we can't just create rules. There has to be 10 a statute passed by your legislators that then allow us 11 to make a rule to enforce that stuff. We don't get 12 (inaudible) -- 13 CHRIS LINDHJEM: It can use the California 14 rules. 15 DONNA HUFF: -- go develop a bunch of rules 16 without a state statute to back that up. 17 BRANDT MANNCHEN: That's right. 18 MELANIE OLDHAM: So everybody call Dennis 19 Bonnen, Chairman of Environmental Regulations, to either 20 straighten up and protect our public health or step down 21 and let somebody come in that will. I'm sorry. That's 22 my opinion. 23 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: I want to thank you all 24 for coming tonight. 25 MELANIE OLDHAM: One final thing. Ralph 79 1 Marquez (inaudible) I think is on the Houston Galveston, 2 (inaudible), his son goes to my church and there are 3 some people that care, is what I'm saying. We have some 4 good -- we have some good people in Brazoria County. 5 Not my rep. 6 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Thank you all for 7 coming tonight. We will have another public meeting in 8 early January. Chris was actually in town for one of 9 our stakeholder meetings and we wanted to take advantage 10 while he's here to at least early on, if you had any 11 questions about the report or just letting -- go over so 12 to kind of could point you at things that he took a look 13 at. And the next time you'll have had a chance to look 14 at the report, hopefully, and have gained a little bit 15 from his presentation. 16 And your comments, if you would like to 17 reply by e-mail, if you would just say "air quality" at 18 hgac.com. 19 If you want to do it in writing -- Andrea, 20 what is the final link so we can click on and they can 21 get to where to send it to or -- 22 (Inaudible.) 23 DANA BLUME: Is it here, right here, 24 Shelley? 25 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Okay. Go to 80 1 www.h-gac.com/taq slash -- 2 MARCIE ANDERSON: Not too fast. 3 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Dot h dash gac -- 4 (Inaudible.) 5 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Okay. So if all of 6 y'all had gotten a handout when you came in -- did 7 everyone get a handout? Okay, good. So you can just 8 click on the little link that's there and instructions 9 and you can -- that will tell you where to write in your 10 comments. So like I said, we'll take them any way that 11 you want to give them to us -- 12 (Inaudible.) 13 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Well, it will be a 14 little bit hard because you'll be relying on us 15 interpreting, so... 16 RUSSELL ERMAN: Would you like pictures? 17 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Pictures would be fine. 18 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One thing that I want 19 to clarify is that we sent the invitation about the 20 (inaudible) meeting to all our committees and even to 21 other agencies and even to the Greater Houston 22 Partnership and they also didn't (inaudible) so 23 (inaudible) knew because I told him personally. 24 BRANDT MANNCHEN: He said he told me -- 25 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I expect him 81 1 (inaudible). 2 BRANDT MANNCHEN: Right. I received 3 nothing, you know. So if (inaudible). 4 (Everyone talking in the audience.) 5 CHRIS LINDHJEM: Shelley? 6 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will the slides be 7 available on the stakeholder website? 8 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Yes, they will. We -- 9 what we do is when we get any comments or we have any 10 presentations, we post everything to our website. So 11 you can actually start at the top and kind of go and see 12 how we kind of progress down and narrow the control 13 matrix down for qualitative to quantitative. 14 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because it's hard to 15 read the pie charts on the screen or on the black and 16 whites. 17 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: It is all on the 18 website. 19 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay. Great. 20 MELANIE OLDHAM: Will there be other 21 meetings on -- I mean, like you said, we haven't even 22 talked about VOC's and NOx from industry. Is that going 23 to be another whole different meeting? 24 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: That is not what we're 25 under contract for. We're under contract for mobile 82 1 source traffic. 2 CHRIS LINDHJEM: Because they primarily do 3 transportation network and stuff, that's why -- that's 4 why it's only mobile sources with them. They don't 5 really deal with industries. 6 (Inaudible.) 7 SHELLEY WHITWORTH: Thank you for coming. 8 (Proceedings concluded at 7:38 p.m.) 9 * * * * * 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 83 1 COUNTY OF HARRIS 2 STATE OF TEXAS 3 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION 4 TO THE PROCEEDINGS TAKEN ON DECEMBER 8, 2008 5 6 I, Lesia J.P. Wagner, a Certified Shorthand Reporter 7 in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify 8 that this transcript is a true record of the proceedings 9 named herein. 10 I further certify that I am neither attorney nor 11 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 12 parties to the action in which these proceedings was 13 taken. 14 Further, I am not a relative or employee of any 15 attorney of record in this, nor do I have a financial 16 interest in the action. 17 Certified to by me this 18th day of December, 2008. 18 19 __________________________________ 20 Lesia J.P. Wagner Texas CSR 3561 Expiration Date: 12-31-2008 21 Worldwide Court Reporters, Inc. Firm Registration No. 223 22 3000 Weslayan, Suite 235 Houston, Texas 77027 23 Telephone: (713) 572-2000 Facsimile: (713) 572-2009 24 Job No. 1-30084 25